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walkingtall
Street Queen
Posts:102
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| 10/07/2006 4:08 PM |
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| hello I was wondering what type of diff is better open or limited slip I have a 98 chevy blazer and was wondering what i had and i saw that some have open and some come with limited slips can you tell me a little about them pros and cons I don't know too much about them thank you |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 10/07/2006 6:33 PM |
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Check out link below to a breif discription of various differential types.
[url]http://forum.snoman.com/viewtopic.php?t=35[/url] |
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Visit the SnoMan at
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walkingtall
Street Queen
Posts:102
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| 10/07/2006 6:57 PM |
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| thanks alot that really helped me out alot. |
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walkingtall
Street Queen
Posts:102
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| 10/07/2006 7:01 PM |
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| I have another question how much does it cost on average to put in a true locker on a truck say a 98 chevy blazer or would a open diff be good enough for light offroading |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 10/07/2006 9:20 PM |
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| Depends on what kind os locker you want but I would not use a Detriot or spider gear replacement type locker in a daily driver because they do effect manuverabilty. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 10/09/2006 6:16 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SnoMan
Depends on what kind os locker you want but I would not use a Detriot or spider gear replacement type locker in a daily driver because they do effect manuverabilty.
No more than any other fully-locked axle though... (full detroit locker, spool, etc.)
I ran drop-in lockers (detroit easy locker in front axle / LokRite in rear axle) for nearly 10 years in my Land Cruiser (V8, auto trans, etc.) and never had any issues as all. I wheeled the toughest trails in Arizona, Utah and New Mexico had to offer on both 33" and 35" tires. The axles are now slung under another Cruiser and still running the exact same running gear.
On slight occasion, the back end would pop and lurch, but I can count on two hands how many times that happened and can be minimized by coasting through turns, instead of getting on or getting off the gas. It's also happened two or three time with my full Detroit locker (which I'm running now).
Drop in lockers got a bad rap because people would put them in their rigs and think they could wheel in the nastiest situations imaginable. The fact is, your axles are only as strong as your weakest link (which varies from axle to axle). I've seen just as many failures with ARB air lockers, full Detroit lockers and lunch-box lockers (drop-ins).
If someone is on a budget and wants to get more traction than a limite slip will offer (while the clutches and springs are still good), then I feel drop-ins are a fine option.
If money isn't an object, then I would strongly consider a selectable locker like the new Ox Locker, Detroits E-Locker (I'm running it and LOVE it (true-trac all the time, full locker when I need it), or an ARB. All of which will set you back a pretty penny, but you're paying for the option.
Two points to be careful of, then I'll get off my soap box:
1) Just like any full-locking differential, be careful in slippery situations (e.g. snow, rain, etc.) as the ass-end will come out pretty quickly.
2) When off-roading, be careful of the added traction. Many people who have never wheeled with a locked axle get surprised at what their rig is capable of with the added traction and get themselves into REAL trouble (i.e. rollovers).
Anyhow, getting back to the original question...
"What type of diff is better, open or limited slip":
Limited slip carriers are great for very light trail rides or dirt roads. If you ever plan on getting on the rocks or in situations where the tires get good grip, the limited slip will break loose and one tire will spin - there is no ambiguity to this, trust me. I've seen people put in stronger sping packs, have custom made clutches and so forth, but even then, one tire will start to spin if one side has all the traction and you're getting on the go-go pedal.
Also, understand that even the best limited slip carriers wear out. If this is your daily driver AND you do a lot of street driving, they'll wear out even sooner (every time you go around a corner, the clutches slip, and wear down). That said, I've often seen limited slip carriers as a pretty big waste of money. They're roughly 3/4 the price of a locker and will wear out in short order.
So, in my humble opinion, if you are ONLY considering an open differential versus a limited slip, I'd stay open and save your money for something else.
If however, you are considering lockers as well, the question comes down to this:
1) How much money do you have?
2) How often will you take your rig off road and what types of wheeling will you do?
Sorry for the long-winded response.
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 10/09/2006 7:43 PM |
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| I do not fully by into your veiws because I have been some pretty nasty place with open and LSD's. I have driven 4x4 with Detriot type lockers and I do not care for them because in a tight power turn they tend to skid front end because they cannot power both wheel in a turn at different speeds period. It is either one wheel drive with outer wheel coasting when coasting or under light power or 2wd both tires same speed skiding in a turn. They have some merit rock crawling but not on the street and not a must have for more than light offroading. THere are a lot of times where a LSD or a open differ will let both tires dig a bit to get more grip. THe best setup would be a selectable locker that would let you have a true diff when you need it for tight powered turns and a locked one for rock crawling if that is your bag. |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 10/09/2006 8:53 PM |
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Webby, you are deffinately spot on. It's like this W.T., if you put more money into quality parts now...the less you will spend in the long run. I know that from experience. Basically, if I had to start all over again I would do my build like this...
1. Axles, as strong as I think I will need.
2. Drive shaft. This is what I choose as my "weak link" if I can. Its alot easier and cheaper to replace.
3. Next would be the tranny and t-case.
4. Then the last would be my engine.
Now I did leave out other key components like tires, but you need to build your axles according to the tires you want to run. And your suspension is built around that(ie. height, and room for articulation cannot be decided until you know what tires to run.) But If you run lockers or whatever, you might blow your axles. If you up the anny on your motor, you run the risk of blowing your tranny or axles. Same goes for tire size. I have experienced all of these problems at some point, and am currently dealing with tranny issues. So be sure to consider these things when choosing parts, and the order to go about. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 10/10/2006 6:37 AM |
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Thanks ChevyMan.
Snoman - I've been in some nasty places with open diffs too, but a properly equipped vehicle will take less throttle to get to the same places, resulting in less carnage. The salient point here is that traction is king when it comes to off-roading and the more you can get of it, the further you can go. Big tires, low gearing, lockers, supple suspension - all of that is done to increase traction.
Regarding this statement - "There are a lot of times where a LSD or a open differ will let both tires dig a bit to get more grip."...
The question I ask is this:
When off-road, can you count on the spider gears lining up of the clutches to engage when you need them too?
ChevyMan - all very good points! Like any project, a good plan is key to the overall success. Experience and wisdom (and even past failures) come in a *very* close second place to a solid plan.
Having your driveshafts as your weakest link is an interesting thought though and I'm curious why you chose that.
I've always chose my front axle u-joints as my weakest link because I can carry 3 or 4 spares in my center console and can change them in 20 minutes or less (without getting underneath the truck).
What's your reasoning for the d-shaft to be your weakest link? (Just curious).
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 10/10/2006 6:56 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Thanks ChevyMan.
Snoman - I've been in some nasty places with open diffs too, but a properly equipped vehicle will take less throttle to get to the same places, resulting in less carnage. The salient point here is that traction is king when it comes to off-roading and the more you can get of it, the further you can go. Big tires, low gearing, lockers, supple suspension - all of that is done to increase traction.
Regarding this statement - "There are a lot of times where a LSD or a open differ will let both tires dig a bit to get more grip."...
The question I ask is this:
When off-road, can you count on the spider gears lining up of the clutches to engage when you need them too?
ChevyMan - all very good points! Like any project, a good plan is key to the overall success. Experience and wisdom (and even past failures) come in a *very* close second place to a solid plan.
Having your driveshafts as your weakest link is an interesting thought though and I'm curious why you chose that.
I've always chose my front axle u-joints as my weakest link because I can carry 3 or 4 spares in my center console and can change them in 20 minutes or less (without getting underneath the truck).
What's your reasoning for the d-shaft to be your weakest link? (Just curious).
Rick
Part of sucessfull of roading is being able to read the ground you are on. I have never been one to charge into the unknown without closer inspection on foot. While it is true that lockers can help in some senarios they are not a cure all and with them comes the tendacy to fishtale and side slip on hills which is not good and again my aurgement for a slectable locker over a Detriot type locker that has no diff spiders to balance power when needed. Consider this, serious offroad equipment like log skid loaders, end loaders, backhoes as while as farm tractors have spider gear with a selectable locker if Detriot type lockers were that great they would not bother with the more expensive to apply selectable locker. As far as stress, it is well know that lockers are a lot harder on axles and especilly in front as well as steering too. A True Trac LSD is likely the best to use up there (Oshkosh has used that style diff in their snow plow truck for about 40 years now and that tells you something too)
On the driveshaft being the weakest link that is really a wise idea as it is cheaper and easier to replace. Also I have seen after market drive shaft kits that have shear pins in them in sleeves that shear off at a selected torque level (before shaft fails) and you simply replace the shear key and get on the road again. This would be a good thing for serious hard core work because drive shaft stays in place, it just does not transfer power anymore. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 10/10/2006 7:09 AM |
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Ahhh... the ol' locker vs. limited slip arguement - this has raged on for more years than you and I have been alive, and will likely continue after we're pushing up daisys.
I can tell you that I've wheel an equal number of vehicles and for an equal number of years with vehicles that have lockers and vehicles that have open diffs / limited slips.
In my humble opinion (and based on part that I've broken far more components in vehicles that were under equipped), I'll take my rear detroit and front selectable locker every day of the week and twice on Sunday.
I could easily jump to the other side of the fence and argue the benefits of a limited slip diff, but experiene is weighing in too heavily on this one. My wheeling ranges everywhere from easy trail ride / fire roads to the more extreme end of rock crawling. I've never, ever once thought to myself during an *off-road* experience (the key phrase being "off-road experience") - "Boy, I really wish I had an open diff".
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 10/10/2006 8:10 AM |
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quote:
[i] "Boy, I really wish I had an open diff".
Rick
Well more times than I can count in slick or sidehill conditions or in tight turns I hve said I am glad that I do not have a Detriot style locker and more that once plowing snow I have said glad I do not have a govLoc too! I have been stuck only four times in my life that I could not dig out of on my own and they all required a tractor or backhoe to extract me and in none of those would a locker helped me one bit as all tires lost effective traction for terrain or it was high centered. When I get really serious of road on muddy or snowy trails and nasty logging roads, I use tire chains and wave at the ones in the ditch or that slide down hills sideways depending on there lockers and big tires to get them through. Sure they are a bit of a pain to put one but the rewards are great and if I know I will need them I will take a set of tires and rims with chains already mounted on them good and tight and swap them out. Yes it might be a bit extreme or over kill but as I get older it is not fun to be stuck and I stack the deck in my favor. I have been up some hill on roads hunting in snow that there is no way in heck you would ever get up them without chains lockers or not because some of them curve while climbing and not even a running start would help you. This one road was particulaly nasty as it turned to right on a steep climb AND banked to the left while doing it. Lot of 4x4's bought the farm there and where amazed that my old stock 72 GMC 3/4 ton 4x4 with its split rims with 32 inch bias 10 ply 7.50/16 traction cleat tires (and those tall skinny tires were great offroad!) with open diffs could take that hill every time without fail any usually without chains too (if there was little or no snow and only mud it did not need chains for that one) Enough of my soap box and agree to disagree. |
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