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Its All Good
Bone Stock
Posts:9
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| 08/27/2008 7:44 PM |
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| I have a 1998 GMC Sierra extended cab longbed with a 3in body lift and 33's...... I am changing the front independent to a straight axle and i need some input on what size motor to put into it i was thinking about a 454 but i am not that sure on motors so i was just posting this to see if i could get any answers...i want to be able to be that gas guy who can pull all those diesels out there. Any help is greatly appreciatted..... |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 08/28/2008 9:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Its All Good
i want to be able to be that gas guy who can pull all those diesels out there.
Do you mean you want to be able to out pull a diesel engine?
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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Its All Good
Bone Stock
Posts:9
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| 09/02/2008 5:17 PM |
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| yes out pull diesel |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 09/02/2008 5:42 PM |
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| well thats gonna be hard to do espically since a diesle uses a turbo. with out the turbo they are just a sick whore. the only way to beat a diesle is to get him before his turbo has time to spool. the turbo correct me if im wrong RICK spools at about 1800RPM so you will have to have all the torque set up at 1200RPM max. in this case there is no replacment for displacment. the 8.1 liter chevy also known as the 502 can be found in alot of the big box trucks and that is the motor you are gonna want to put in your truck. or you can build up a smaller motor i am building up the 351 in my truck instead of going witha 460 because of the trannys wont match up. so i say this if you dont have a big block in you truck now you might have to change some stuff around like the whole drive train. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 09/02/2008 9:58 PM |
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Unless money is not an issue on your list at all, you're going to have a hard time out pulling a newer diesel engine. Very generally speaking, you get more horsepower from a gas engine vs. a diesel engine, when you measure cubic inch vs. cubic inch of displacement. However, in the recent years, with the introduction of direct injection, common-rail injection, outstanding computer management for turbos and so on, Diesels are generally outperforming gasoline engines for power and mpg.
So... can you build a gas engine to outperform a stock diesel engine? The answer is yes... but at a cost. You'll need to build a really strong big-block motor, you may need to consider running a blower, and then you'll be able to pass anything on the street - except for a gas station. :)
If you don't care about fuel mileage, go with a built-to-the-hilt 454 (as aftermarket performance parts are readily available), and cram it with top of the line components!
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 09/03/2008 8:34 AM |
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| Well... I do believe you can get a 454 to pull as much as a diesel. Remember, diesels are far more expensive than gas motors. Just the other day, I smoked a Dodge diesel with my 88 crew cab chevy with a 454. And it has barely any mods. I also pull my 12 foot slide in camper and a triple axle trailer with my K10 with one tons at 65mph all day. But I am also only running a THM400 and 4.56 gears in my one tons. Also, I am running a D60 in the front and 14 bolt full float rear. Stick with the 454 and supercharger. Good gears, and tranny selection should be considered too. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 09/03/2008 9:35 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
Just the other day, I smoked a Dodge diesel with my 88 crew cab chevy with a 454.
Dude... does that really even count? Afterall, it is a Dodge. [:D] |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 09/03/2008 5:19 PM |
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| for as much as you spend on a supercharger you could drop in a 12v cummins and have so much power you wouldnt know what to do with it. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 09/03/2008 8:32 PM |
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| No way!!! lol. A supercharger is nowhere as expensive as a Cummins!! The average price for a used one is from 4-6K, depending on milage. At least it is up here... And a decent supercharger (nothing crazy) is around 2500 to 3000. I dont know what diesel prices are where you are at, but they are 5.20 up here. And gas is still relatively cheap at around 4.60. Even with the price of oil dropping!!! And I work in an oilfield!! WTF?? ok, of topic!!! lol. But really, you could find a good 454 for around 3k with no miles most likely, and throw some good bolt ons, not even a supercharger. And you would still have stump pulling power, that has a quick reaction time and requires no turbo. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 09/03/2008 9:28 PM |
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| I have to disagree on this one no disrespect. but diesel is still expensive down here but you can get a 12v cummins around here for cheap as cheap as you said cause the 6000 you spend on getting that gas motor to make as much power as that cummins is redicoulus. espically when the life of that motor is maybe max 60,000 miles and the mileage that you can get out of one of those cummins is a hundred times better than that gas motor would get. i perfer gas over diesel any day cause i like them better. but when it comes down to it either way this guy goes he will have to dump alot of money espically if he has a small block in it now. so change the drive train and put a diesel in it. you can get more power out of that cummins with a flat head screw dirver than you can with all the bolt ons for that 454. your crazy to think that a 454 could out pull a diesel cummins with just bolt ons. and the gas mileage that the 454 will get at 7.4 literes to a 5.9 literes cummins i think they will even themselves out in the long run. dont you think not to be a dick but i think you are goining about this in the wrong way why put a bandaid on a broken bone it wont fix it. then why try to beef up a gas motor when it still wont out pull the stock diesel. build big now and you wont spend the time and money in the future upgrading to what you should have done in the first place. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 09/03/2008 10:09 PM |
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| I think someone just said "bring it!" :) And let the friendly debates begin. hehehe |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 09/05/2008 6:50 AM |
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| Ok, geez. First off, I never said a 454 would make more power. But it will make impressive torque numbers with little effort. I also was just making a point that you can add to whatever motor you choose with the proper gears and tranny. Those two things are just as important (if not more so) than the motor selection. If his rig is already gas, he will have to change the fuel tank and lines, computer and wiring harness, motor mounts, and different transmission (its a Cummins, and dont get me started with the cost of an adapter). So, you see, the fact that his rig is already gas, will bolt right up to a 454 and tranny, harness, frame, etc, he will be miles ahead financially and down time due to wrenching, cutting, and fabricator. Is it really worth all that work and money to get better gas milage when diesel is almost 2 dollars more a gallon? Lets see... Diesel: change motor (4-6k), wiring harness (hundred bucks or so?), transmission (2k) or adapter for around 6 hundred, maybe more, new fuel tank (500 bucks with pickup and sending unit? maybe more), new fuel lines (hundred or two), motor mount conversion or fabrication (about 300), New front springs and shocks after solid axle swap to deal with added weight (1k?)... and that is just the beginning. You mean to tell me that all of that is less expensive in comparison to a medium built 454? Sorry, I must be lost or just dont follow. I am not arguing the fact that diesels rock and can make gobs of power on a low budget. But when you start talking about a swap of this magnitude, I dont think its reasonable unless you have a tree that sports hundred dollar bills as leaves. My advice is this: If you want diesel power, ditch your rig and buy a diesel. But if all you want to do is make your truck competitive with mildly built diesels, go 454. To me, that is reasonable. Why waste so much money just to pull? I dont think a Chevy gas to Cummins diesel is worth the dough involved. Call me crazy all you want. I bet you would be close to around 10k in the hole with that kind of conversion. Just my two cents! Dont worry Danny, no offense taken. Your still ok in my book, I dont care what Webby says about you...lol. jk. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 09/05/2008 9:15 AM |
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| yea all that would be needed if he was going with a 24v cummins with a OBD2 computer system. but a 12v can be purchased down here for about 6,000 dollars turn key and ready to run. they dont need a computer system because this is a older motor that was put in the early dodges and they can run without changing over all that shiznit. you littealy buy a 12v turn key out of the box get a 5 gallon gas tank full of deisel and drop a rubber fuel line in it and it will fire right up. so yea you would need to change all of that stuff over if you were gonna put a 24v cummins in it but that is why i said go with the 12v old school baby. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 09/05/2008 8:51 PM |
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| I say, if he goes diesel, go 6.5TD or DuraMax. Ok, I will now await my onslaught....lol. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 09/05/2008 11:51 PM |
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| well i dont think rick will disagree cause he owns one and your a chevy man to so not many people will disagree but me. the cummins is a true work horse but it is not as refined as the duramax is. the duramax has to be the quietest diesel out there. i love it but when it comes down to a work horse i want the cummmins. all around though would be the 7.3 liter navastar engine that ford had. the only junk thing about them is that they eat fuel and the tranny that backs them is nothing but a peice of shiznit. i have the same tranny in my truck and i had to have it built up to feel comfortable with it. but that is the badest ass motor out there they last forever and they can produce so much power that you wouldnt believe. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 09/06/2008 11:27 AM |
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Actually, I'm about finished with Diesels at this point. I've owned a PowerJoke... err, PowerStroke, I've owned a DuraSlack, err... DurMax, and Jody (my tech editor) has a CumAlong, err. Cummins.
The price of Diesel is so bloody high (even though gas prices are coming down, Diesel is not coming down at the same rate), that it's now not economically feasible to have a Diesel anymore, ESPECIALLY if you drive it without towing. While it's great to be able to tweak and tune a Diesel engine with computers, upgraded turbos, better intercoolers, free-flowing exhaust, cool air dams, etc., and you can make stupid HP and torque numbers, the fact is that you really never need as much as you can make. I'll admit it, I got bit by the Diesel power-tuning bug back when Diesel was under $2 per gallon, and with the mods I made to my Duramax, I can easily go from 20 or so HP over stock, to well over 150+ HP over stock, and 350 lb/ft of torque over stock with the push of a button – That’s roughly 425 HP, and over 700 lb/ft of torque!
Don't get me wrong, it's amazing to have a big Diesel truck throw you back in the seat like a hot rod. BUT... In the last two years, I think I've pushed "go go" button on my Edge programmer into "Extreme" mode (or any mode other than "fuel savings" for that matter) twice, and it was just to "blow the carbon out" (which is another excuse for me to just hot rod around).
Here it is in summary for me - I've been towing my 18’ steel trailer with my oh-so heavy FJ40 on it for 4 years with my DuraMax. In the last two years, I simply leave the Edge programmer in “fuel savings” mode just because Diesel is so stupid expensive.
Yes, Cummins is a workhorse engine (so is the PowerStroke and DuraMax for that matter, by definition). All three engines can make ridiculous HP and torque numbers, but what do you need it for aside from hot rodding? When trucks come stock with 350 HP and 650 lb/ft of torque right off of the showroom floor, you can easily tow the largest, biggest and heaviest of loads without even making the truck breath heavy.
For what we (those of us on the boards that are part of this discussion right now) use our tow rigs for, which is primarily flat or trailer towing a 3,000 pound 4X4, it’s like knocking a beer can off of a fence post with a Tomahawk missile.
When my lease is up on my Duramax, it’s “Sayonara diesel, hello gas”!
When (if…) Diesel prices EVER settle down to what they were, I might consider it. But since I spend less than 5% of my time actually USING my Diesel engine for what it was designed for (towing massive loads), I’m just throwing money into the garbage can. :)
But, I just now realized that we’re way off topic here, and I’m tired of typing - and you’re probably tired of hearing my rant. :)
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 09/07/2008 9:35 AM |
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| o agree one hundred percent rick. i had a bunch of money set aside to by a cummins but when it camedown to it i settled for a $3500 F250 with the 351 in it and am very happy enough power and i can drive it for fun and not break the bank lol. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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sammy 87
Street Queen
Posts:107
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| 09/07/2008 9:42 PM |
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| so i agree with alot of what everyone has said. but the bottom line is i see no possible way to make a 454 without ton of money you would have to go through the whole motor and put in HD parts and best products money can buy to out pull a diesel. gas engine just arent made for what the diesel is made to do. if u wanna run ur gas ur gonna need to run the gas class and if u wanna out pull a diesel buy a diesel truck. actually Rick the other day road diesel was 4.11 here in IN. actually now that i think about it all the truck pulls ive been to are on dirt. getting the power to the ground tourque to pull the sled and traction i hate to say this but u could i guess out pull a diesel. |
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