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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 1:53 AM |
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| Heya guys, what I have going on is this... I replaced my 700R4 (blew it up) and my NP208 with a THM400 and NP205. Problem is as follows: one ear on the adapter plate for the 400 and 205 is broke off. Meaning I only have one ear to bolt down to the crossmember. Now, with my new Corvette motor, I can assure you that the other ear will soon share a similar fate. I looked at Advance Adapters, and after I regained consciousness from the staggering price of over 500.00 big ones... I decided there must be a better way. Seeing as I have NOT checked the junkyards yet, I wanted to know if some one sells a NEW unit that wont cost my first born. I also checked out the price on an adapter plate for a THM400 to an NP208, just because of that nice low range.... but that made me forget who I was (the price that is). So any ideas for NEW units would be great. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/26/2007 3:39 AM |
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| Personally I consider this a downgrade not a upgrade going from a 700R4 to a THM400. Sure a THM400 is sturdy but it is old tech and no locking converter and only 3 speeds too. The 700R4 when properly rebuilt is a strong tranny capable of handling a LOT of HP. It also has a deeper first gear than THM 400 does (3.06 vs 2.48) and OD which means you can run a lot deeper axle gears and still cruise fairly well RPM wise. Most 700R4s fail because they are not properly cooled and/or are forced to work against tall axle ratio and tire combos which can lead to slow death. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 4:48 AM |
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| These things I already know. But when the cost comes down to it, the THM400 is much cheaper and more managable than a 700R4. And to date, I have blown up 5 700R4s, three of which were built by race shops and custom tranny shops. So after spending around 2500 on each of those, I could care less about the deep gearing anymore. It is just not worth it. And I dont cruise the freeway in my mudding truck, for two reasons:1. We dont have freeways in Alaska, and Two, I have another truck for that application. Also, I have two transmission coolers hooked up to my 700s, one being a 4 core radiatior with 2 electric fans.. and one 3 core solo that has its own fan that I controll from inside the truck with its own temp guage. So, with all of that said, I HATE 700R4s. Until some one builds me one for free, I will stay away from them...and go with a 5 speed stick if I want freeways gears. I have heard it a million times that a 700 can be great, just not yet for me. I love my THM400 so far, kinda gutless...but as long as it doesnt break, I am good. Especially with my new 5:13s on the way. It already barks the tires. And I do love the NP208, great transfercase. I have never ever broke one. I always make good skid plates for them, so I dont ever worry. And they are dime a dozen, so they are easy to replace when their time is up. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/26/2007 5:33 AM |
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| You are doing something very wrong here and likely have big tires with tall gears or a poor rebuild or both because a 700R4 built to 1987 specs and later is not a weak design and likely one of the best off road trannies ever built when properly setup. They do not fail repeatably for no reason but if you are one of those drivers that thinks 3.42, 3.73 or 4.10 is enough with big tires you will be buy a lot of trannies. I suggest that you get a Bulldog 700R4 and together with 5.13 gears and a aux tranny cooler you problem should not return. I have a 89 4x4 burb that I bought new that has made over a dozen trips across country and rockies and towed some serious trailer a few times too with its 700R4 and it has over 180K miles on it now and it still works like new. It does have a aux cooler and has fluid and filter changed every 15 or 20K too. Most 4x4 are not very fuel efficent anyway but the lack of a locking converter on a THM 400 will add about 8 to 10% to your overall gas bill and the overall all cost of swap. Myself I would have regeared the truck and added a aux cooler after first tranny failure and likely even before. Many are quick to blame tranny rather than discovering and correcting the true cause of the problems. BTW, depending on tire size, I might even go deeper than a 5.13 because a 700R 4 has a .7 OD so even a 6.14 in OD is a lot taller in OD than a THM 400 in drive with a 5.13. The neat part about have a OD tranny in a serious 4x4 is that you can run some very seriously deep axle gears for maximum performance and traction off road with lower drive train strain and still have a lower overall cruising ratio. A 4 speed automatic has a considerable advantage over any 3 epeed in this regard. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 02/26/2007 10:55 AM |
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To get us back to the original question of "where can I get one"?, have you checked Novak? They specialize in conversion / adapters like Advanced, but they are often cheaper. Caveat - they specilize mostly in Jeep stuff, but it's worth a call.
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 12:00 PM |
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| Thank you guys for the info, I will check out Novak and Caveat. I have already weighed the pro's and con's of taking out my blown 700R4. And for 200 bucks, I am going with my THM400 and NP205 that is stronger and will put up with more of my abuse. I DO know about the 700R4s reputable gear ratios, but for now...the dollar speaks the loudest. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 12:29 PM |
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After a bit of research, I did not find my specific application on either of the formentioneds websites. But I did find a few other Adapter companys, some of which you may already know... but for those of you out there who are looking for specialized adapter plates for various transmission and transfercase applications here you go:
Advance Adapters: advanceadapters.com/805-238-7000
Downey Off Road Mfg: downeyoffroad.com/310-949-9494
JTR: Jags That Run: (check out the whole site, they have TBI conversions and Trans-Tcase conversions)
jagsthatrun.com/510-462-3619
L&L Products: llproducts.com/214-475-5202
Northwest Off Road Specialties Inc.:northwestoffroad.com/360-676-1200
Jeep Conversions: novak-adapt.com/310-921-3202
TCI Autovotive: tciauto.com/601-224-8972
TeckPack: techpack-fitzall.com/800-527-2544
Trans-Dapt: tdperformance.com/310-921-0404
If those dont get what you need (may not be cheap....) then it isnt worth the swap! Thank you Webby for the head start on all of that. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 02/26/2007 1:14 PM |
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Wow, yo udid a lot of research on the companies... I forgot about a few of those companies, and there are a few that I haven't heard of (e.g. L&L, JTR).
You do have a solid point though regarding money, and if you weren't running a lot of mud, I would have suggested that you stick with the 700R4 as well. But given that you don't see highway use and you've got a cheap alternative, I think the TH400 will stand up to all of that abuse, and then some (hopefully you have a "K" case tranny though!).
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 1:20 PM |
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| I did not research that, but I can tell you this. This tranny and t-case are out of a North Slope truck. I have paperwork that says the tranny was BRAND NEW as of 26,455 miles ago. And it is out of a 1980 K30 with a 400ci motor and Dana 60 in the front and Dana 70 in the rear. The paperwork says "direct replacement". And the tranny looks fairly new. So with that said, maybe you can enlighten me as to wheather or not it is a "K". |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/26/2007 1:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
I did not research that, but I can tell you this. This tranny and t-case are out of a North Slope truck. I have paperwork that says the tranny was BRAND NEW as of 26,455 miles ago. And it is out of a 1980 K30 with a 400ci motor and Dana 60 in the front and Dana 70 in the rear. The paperwork says "direct replacement". And the tranny looks fairly new. So with that said, maybe you can enlighten me as to wheather or not it is a "K".
It depends on what you are replacing. If you are replacing a 700R4 with existing Tcase the output splines will not match. For some strange reason GM has used a LOT of different Tcase input spline combos over the years and Dodge and ford does to even with NP205's so you need to match everything up. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 1:29 PM |
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| Well like I said before, the Transmission and T-case came together out of the same truck and are currently IN my truck and I am driving it, so I know I dont have any matching problems.... It was just the ear that was broke off that was a concern. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/26/2007 5:21 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
Well like I said before, the Transmission and T-case came together out of the same truck and are currently IN my truck and I am driving it, so I know I dont have any matching problems.... It was just the ear that was broke off that was a concern.
I understand that. Do you by change have the piece that is broken off? |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 5:45 PM |
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| I wish, JB Weld is my friend....lol
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/26/2007 5:59 PM |
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| I do not have the bracket in front of me as it has been a long time since I have had a 4x4 with a NP205 (I do have a extra mount/adapter that goes between a 4L80 and a BW4401 used in modern 1 ton) Would it be feasible to cut or mill base off short enough and weld and new plate to it to provide new ears? |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/26/2007 10:31 PM |
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| You know what, that is feasable!! I even have a large piece of 1/2 inch steel that I could use! Thank you SnoMan! That is a freakin kick A$$ idea. That would be so much cheaper. And if I somehow really mess up, I can still just replace the adapter. That is some great backyard tech. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/27/2007 4:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
You know what, that is feasable!! I even have a large piece of 1/2 inch steel that I could use! Thank you SnoMan! That is a freakin kick A$$ idea. That would be so much cheaper. And if I somehow really mess up, I can still just replace the adapter. That is some great backyard tech.
I used to work in R&D and we used to have to adapt and make things work sometimes and and I have done it on m own too more than once. If the mount turns out to be cast iron or is not very weldable, braze it. Properly done brazing can be pretty strong. Done best with a cutting torch with flame set fuel rich (getting little wifs of black smoke from it) and heat area to be brazed cherry red to slightly orange and apply braze to pieces of metal and flow it into joint. (never melt it in flame directly but remove it briefly when applying and use plenty of flux) Another nice thing about braze is that you can build up bond area to increase its strength too (when doing this you need to melt braze with flame itself and build it up) Sound complex but once you get the hang of it, brazing is a lot of "fun" at times and easy to do. |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 02/27/2007 5:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
So with that said, maybe you can enlighten me as to wheather or not it is a "K".
Sorry man - I totally missed that question you wrote...
"K" cases are easy to identify. they'll have a big ol' honkin' letter "K" embossed on the side of thebell housing. There have been a very limited few that were "K" cases that were not embossed - the only way to identify those rare units are to measure the thickness of the casting (don't ask me the thickness - I don't know), or they'll have a cast aluminum scatter shield / torque plate cover, in lieu of the standard stamped tin units.
"K" case transmissions were used in 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and are about 25% stronger than their non-K brethren.
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/27/2007 11:49 PM |
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| Wow I did not know that. I checked it out and guess what, both my 400 and the 700R4 are K cases. I guess I oughta keep that 700R4 and rebuild it!!! |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 02/28/2007 8:14 AM |
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| Lucky ba$tard! [)] |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/28/2007 11:52 AM |
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| HAHA, I guess soo! lol, well you know where to get one now!!! |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/28/2007 5:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
So with that said, maybe you can enlighten me as to wheather or not it is a "K".
or they'll have a cast aluminum scatter shield / torque plate cover, in lieu of the standard stamped tin units.
"K" case transmissions were used in 3/4 and 1 ton trucks and are about 25% stronger than their non-K brethren.
Rick
I guess they have wider spread usage than you think because my 89 1/2 ton 4x4 burb has one too. My guess is that most older 4x4's had them too. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 02/28/2007 7:56 PM |
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| Yea, my 700 came out of my 1/2 ton....not to say that it wasnt exchanged at one point for a 3/4 or 1 ton tranny. But the 400 deffinately came out of a V3500. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 03/01/2007 5:11 PM |
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| They were most common in 3/4 and 1 ton trucks (either 2WD or 4WD), but some 1/2 tons with towing packages had them. So yes, they were pretty common, especially given that we're 4-wheel drive guys, and that's where we look for / at stuff. ;) |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 03/01/2007 6:31 PM |
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| haha, well its nice to know that both my trannies are good and strong....well, at least the cases are....haha |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/01/2007 7:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
haha, well its nice to know that both my trannies are good and strong....well, at least the cases are....haha
Make no mistake, a properly built 700R4 is more than a match for a warmed up "Rat" block. If it was me, today I would pick a properly built 700R4 over a THM400 any day even if for no other reason than 4 speeds instead of 3 that makes some serious axle gears even more viable with the .7 OD. Plus, the 700R4 is NOT computer controlled like the 4L60 is. (BTW, the 4L60 is really just a electronically controlled 700R4 and the basic design is now 25 years old!) |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 03/02/2007 7:38 AM |
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Actually Snoman, up until 1993, the 4L60 did NOT have a computer controlled shifter. In '93, the released (officially), the 4L60-E (still more commonly known as the 4L60), which had an electronically controlled shifter.
In the very early 90's (90 and 91), GM started rebadging their automatic transmissions with nomenclature that would describe what the transmission was, and this was primarily due to the proliferation (in the 80's) of the transaxle - simply put, it was getting tough for people to distinguish, by name, what transmissions where what. For example, the 4L60 breaks down to:
4 = 4 speeds
L = Longitudinally positioned
60 = 60,000 lbs of GVW capacity (roughly)
E = Electronically controlled shift
Even the TH400's got rebadged as the 3L80, which means by GVW capabilities, it IS stronger than the 700R4, when you compare stock unit vs. stock unit. The biggest reason why the 700R4 is weaker? Overdrie - that final OD gear makes the transmissions overall capability inherently weaker.
Now, lets say you take the OD gear out of the way and compare them - let's do that for argument's sake... In 1971, GM introduced the TH475, which was a severely beefed up version of the TH400 and could only be found in 3/4 and 1 ton, dually 4X4's (and most commonly in dump trucks, stake beds, etc.). The TH475 was some 28% stronger than even the "K" case TH400, and still substantially stronger than the 700R4 (comparing OE to OE that is).
Not that I'm splitting hairs or anything.
Rick
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 03/02/2007 10:20 AM |
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| P.S. - The THM400 was such a revered transmission, that other auto manufacturers such as Ferrari, Jeep, Jaguar, Rolls-Royce, and AM-General utilized it in several of their models. Even today, the U.S. Army HUMVEE still uses the THM400 transmission. |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/02/2007 2:42 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Actually Snoman, up until 1993, the 4L60 did NOT have a computer controlled shifter. In '93, the released (officially), the 4L60-E (still more commonly known as the 4L60), which had an electronically controlled shifter.
Not exactly because it was still a 700R4 except for a electronic range selection replacing the manual linkage. Internals where still non electronic otherwise. When it became the 4L60E, it had a electronically controlled valve body too
quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
In the very early 90's (90 and 91), GM started rebadging their automatic transmissions with nomenclature that would describe what the transmission was, and this was primarily due to the proliferation (in the 80's) of the transaxle - simply put, it was getting tough for people to distinguish, by name, what transmissions where what. For example, the 4L60 breaks down to:
4 = 4 speeds
L = Longitudinally positioned
60 = 60,000 lbs of GVW capacity (roughly)
E = Electronically controlled shift
You are completely wrong on the 60 part. The 60 is short for 600 Metric Newtons of input torque capacity. (around 330 Ft Lbs). In the old day the THM375, 400, 425 and 475 where different torque capacity rated THM400's. Back then this number was for ftlbs. Also this is not to be confused with the THM375B which was a beefed up THM350. As for GVW, GM rates the 4L80 up to about 20,000 lbs but they have no rating for 4L60 in SI specs in that regard anyway. The Alison was called the 1000 when it first came out for a grated torque capacity of 1000 Metric Newtons
quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
The biggest reason why the 700R4 is weaker? Overdrie - that final OD gear makes the transmissions overall capability inherently weaker.
Not really true. The fact that it has over drive does not make it weaker as that depends on haw it is designed and implemented.
Early 700R4 failed towing in OD for a few reasons. One big reason was GM for some strange reason choose to bypass cooler in OD with most of the oil which they fixed by 85. The second reason is the axle ratios it is used with.Even with 3.73's an stock tires when in OD at 60 anf towing the tranny will unlock converter and ride the upper end of converter stall try to make extra torque to pull taller ratio which means a lot of extra heat and failure in time. 4.10's with stock tires would be the minimum for fairly safe towing in OD as converter would unlock less and when it does it will be closer to being off of stall and less heat would be made. With a 4.56 and stock tires I doubt you would have any issues towing in OD with a proper cooler. The alision will tow fine in OD but then it never unlock converter in those gears either too.
quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Now, lets say you take the OD gear out of the way and compare them - let's do that for argument's sake... In 1971, GM introduced the TH475, which was a severely beefed up version of the TH400 and could only be found in 3/4 and 1 ton, dually 4X4's (and most commonly in dump trucks, stake beds, etc.). The TH475 was some 28% stronger than even the "K" case TH400, and still substantially stronger than the 700R4 (comparing OE to OE that is).
Not that I'm splitting hairs or anything.
Rick
I guess you never looked in some old Caddies and big Old's and such because the 425 and 475 was born for them and later migrated to trucks and such. I would not use the term "severely" beefed up either. Some of those old lead sled had some very serious motors in them to move the weight smartly and it required more than a stock THM400 to do so and last. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 03/02/2007 8:48 PM |
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| OK!!! DING DING DING, ROUND TWO LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!! lol, this is some great stuff...I might actually know something about Transmissions by the time this is over! This would make for a great article, that is..."Transmissions, what you really have". I would like to see these trannies ripped apart and compared side by side, with a list of things you can do to upgrade them. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/03/2007 5:01 AM |
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| Many do not realize that back in the later 60's and early 70, the THM400 series reached its peak because that had some very powerful motors in big old lead sled as we called them before emission controls killed them of in 73 and later. People that where not around and driving then do not realize this. I remember my dad ordering a 66 chevy caprice with a 396/350HP factory duals and a 3.31 posi performance ratio. That car got with the program and you could jump on it at 60 or 70 and it would put you in the seat (he almost ordered it with a 427!!) The point of all this is they all where putting the biggest engine they could in them then and that required monster trannies too. It might be possible the the heavier cased versions of them where born for 4x4s because of transfer case counter torque but when they made it to 4x4 the 400HP + factory motors car motor were gone and with them the need to make/design a 475 then. They just repackaged some designs from the old sleds. Ah the good old days when engines had 11 to 1 CR and burned 100 octane fuel that was avaible everywhere. Until you lived with them for a while as I did you just will never know what powerful engine existed once about a time and the trannies designed to handle them. The mainstay caddy motor was a 472 CU mill that grew to 500 cu when emissions hit and Pontiac, Buick and Olds all had 455's for a bit too. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 03/03/2007 1:15 PM |
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| Every bit of that information came directly from an in-depth interview with several GM historian's and engineers that I did about 12 weeks ago. I had also interviewed two transmission building specialists as well. |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/03/2007 4:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Every bit of that information came directly from an in-depth interview with several GM historian's and engineers that I did about 12 weeks ago. I had also interviewed two transmission building specialists as well.
Sorry to be a downer but I know I am right on the Metric Newton thing as it is straight from GM's tranny tech specs. It is 100% correct. Not sure what whacky weed they were on when they quoted you that a 4L60 was for 60K GVW. (a 4L60 would have a VERY short life with that load unless it had like a 11 to one rear axle ratio or deeper) Just like there is going to be a 6L50E, a 6L70E, 6L80E and a planned 6L90E too. (500, 700, 800 and 900 Metric Newton torque capacity class. (BTW a ft lbs of force it equal to approx 1.5 Metric Newtons rounded off) They got other three right but they were WAY off on the 60 thing. I would question data from some of those historians in the future because they do not have their ducks in a row on the Metric Newton thing at all |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 03/03/2007 7:11 PM |
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Hey Snoman - if you can send me undeniable proof (e.g. scanned manufacturer docs, technical specs, etc.), I'll give you credit in our article, and I'll send you a check for $50.
I worked my butt off on that article, and I want it to be absolutely correct, plus I can tell the folks I talked to that they need to update their data / notes too.
You can email stuff to rick@4x4review.com, or fax stuff to: 425-928-3923. If you need mailing address, drop me a note.
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/03/2007 7:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Hey Snoman - if you can send me undeniable proof (e.g. scanned manufacturer docs, technical specs, etc.), I'll give you credit in our article, and I'll send you a check for $50.
I worked my butt off on that article, and I want it to be absolutely correct, plus I can tell the folks I talked to that they need to update their data / notes too.
You can email stuff to rick@4x4review.com, or fax stuff to: 425-928-3923. If you need mailing address, drop me a note.
Rick
I know I have it here Rick, somewhere in my 7 gig GM authored SI database. My daughter are home for break between quarter and go back tommorow evening. If you can wait I will look for on monday I will start looking then. See the problem is that GM does not list the same specs/data for each model year meaning that for some model years they give all tech spec and some they do not in same database so I have to dig for it. It has a lot of data but it is not well organized. Example for 2000 they list (I found it quickly) the 4L80 at 16K GVW and max trailer weight as 21K but no info on torque capacity so I have to dig some because I have seen it. It may take a while to find it again. I also have GM overhaul manuals for the trannies on CD's too and maybe I saw the NM data there. |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 03/03/2007 8:05 PM |
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If you guys are familiar with Wikipedia, here is a sliver of information that may be a part of what you are looking for. Here is the original URL:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-Hydramatic#700R4_.2F_4L60
4L65-E
An updated 4L60-E, the 4L65-E, was phased in around the 2003 model year when coupled behind the 6.0 Vortec. Five-pinion planetaries, along with a modified drum/input shaft assembly, were improved to withstand the 300+ ft·lbf (over 400 N·m) of torque.
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 03/03/2007 8:11 PM |
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Here is another Wikipedia link that says the exact N-m limit on the 4L60-E and the 4L65-E.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_4L60-E_transmission
Unless I am reading it wrong, the 60 and 65 part of the ID does not relate to the N-m. But maybe I am reading it wrong. And I am pretty sure that the information in these page HAS to be correct from the original manufacturer... but I cant be 110% sure. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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ChevyMan0784
Lift & Lockers
Posts:699
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| 03/03/2007 8:48 PM |
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Here are some other folks saying the same thing as you Webby....
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/transmissions-drivetrain/400939-700r4-vs-4l60.html
Yea, exact same thing. It's not "stronger" although the ones that are referred to as 4L60's are a little teensy bit better, as by the time GM changed the name, they had fixed flaws in the transmission, which included different valve parts, etc. But if it's a rebuilt 700-R4, then it doesn't matter, as most rebuilders update it with the changes (larger holes in the valve body plate, different boost valve design, etc.)
The first digit of the new name is the number of forward gears, second is L for longitudal, t for transversal, the two digit number is GVWR rating, and any addition is easy to figure, like -E is electronic, -HD is heavy duty. |
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gimmie fuel gimmie fire gimmie that which I desire-James Hetfield
*Never give an Irish man good cause for revenge.
*Guns dont kill people, but they sure help!!
*98% OF AMERICANS SAY 'OH S**t' BEFORE GOING IN THE DITCH ON A ICEY ROAD.
THE OTHER 2% ARE FROM ALASKA, AND THEY SAY, 'HOLD MY BEER AND WATCH THIS |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/04/2007 4:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
4L65-E
An updated 4L60-E, the 4L65-E, was phased in around the 2003 model year when coupled behind the 6.0 Vortec. Five-pinion planetaries, along with a modified drum/input shaft assembly, were improved to withstand the 300+ ft·lbf (over 400 N·m) of torque.
The input drum has long been a weak point in the 4L60 and it is actually not the same as when 700R4 was designed as the cheapened it up in late 90's to cut costs. They tried a couple different fixes and then resigned it again for the 65. They also upgraded the intermediate sprage in in the 65. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 03/04/2007 1:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChevyMan0784
Here are some other folks saying the same thing as you Webby....
http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/transmissions-drivetrain/400939-700r4-vs-4l60.html
...the two digit number is GVWR rating...
That's exactly what the engineers at GM told me too.
A few years ago, I started working on a project, with Toyota, to decode the FJ genome - their historians and data was, well, it was much like trying to figure out who killed Jimmy Hoffa. If snoman has anything definitive, I'll be more than happy to make an update. ;)
Thanks guys!
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 03/04/2007 4:26 PM |
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| I have data on what was changed and when on the 700R4 as it was changed a lot by 87. Also you want to stay away from 700R4's with 27 spline input shafts. The later and better models had 30 spline input so it is a easy way to tell them apart. Also mini blazers with 4's and 4.3's and S10 have a 4L30 not a 4L60. They look the same but are different internally and have different ratios too. Also fullsize trucks with 4.3 could have the 4L30 too. |
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