danielwb
Bone Stock
Posts:10
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| 01/31/2007 11:20 AM |
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| I own a 97 tj with a procomp 4" lift and 33's. Detroited front and back. I have had this setup for nearly 5 years and this year I experienced the death wobble for the first time. Does anyone know what the cause could be ? I have replaced Tierod, draglink and steering stabilizer. Nothing appears to be broken or loose. Any help is appreciated.
dan |
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danb |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 01/31/2007 11:45 AM |
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Well - as you likely know Dan, the greatest reson for death wobble problems comes from improper caster. But, if this is just started happening after 4 years, then somethign else is certainly wrong.
Can you answer a few question first though?
1) At what speed(s) does this happen?
2) Will it happen all by itself, or do you have to hit a bump first?
3) Can you only stop the death wobble by coming to a full or near full stop?
4) What type of tires do you have, and what does the tread look like on the front tires (e.g. are the tread blocks shaved at an angle? Are they "cupping"?, etc.)
5) what condition are your ball joints in?
6) Last question - has anything changed (from a suspension, drivetrain standpoint) in the last year?
Regards,
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 01/31/2007 1:10 PM |
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| I agree with Rick the caster is most likley your cause here. The reason it is appearing now is because as the front end wears its unstable tendancies become more known. You might have some worn parts as Rick suggests but you likely also have a dynamically unstable front end that needs to have its caster and toe-in checked and likely reset. BTW, once you lift it and install bigg tires, factory alignment spec are little more than a suggested guideline that will likely need to be modified for best possible stabilty. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
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Posts:2375
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| 01/31/2007 5:03 PM |
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yeah... what he said! [:D]
In all honesty, I started thinking back and realized that my FJ40 did the same thing. I had (still do actually) a 4" lift, 35" tires, crossover steering, etc. After a few years, I'd get a death wobble if I drove over a local set of railroad tracks (about a 30 degree angle from the road). Turned out it was a combination of the lift sagging (about an inch), which changed the effective caster some, and a few worn components. A fresh set of springs, and one new ball joint later and all is well.
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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danielwb
Bone Stock
Posts:10
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| 02/01/2007 3:29 PM |
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To answer your questions Rick,
It occurs between 35-45 mph give or take. ( never had speedo reset after lift and tires)
The first time it happened was after crossing local rr tracks. Now it will to it all by itself though not all the time and yes it all stops once I come to a complete or near stop.
I have Firestone Destination A/T 33's for daily use and are less than a year old. No cupping is evident.
I replaced the Tierod and ball jointlinks about 6 mos ago. No other joints have been replaced and the same goes for drivetrain/suspension.
Thanks for all your help.
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danb |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/01/2007 5:12 PM |
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| Typically when you have a death wooble problem is can happen are certain speed and be okay above and below it and sometimes a bump can set it off. The reason it does it at certain speeds is the combination of caster, camber in toein loads front axle steering jonts differently with speed and when the right comboi is reached it shakes. I have seen them shake so bad that they can take you off the road. I would take it to a alignment shop and see if you can just get them to read current setting on it (not align it yet) and post the figures here and I will be able to tell you what the cause likley is (in years past I used to setup/align front axles on 4x4's before there was computer racks) |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 02/01/2007 6:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SnoMan
...in years past I used to setup/align front axles on 4x4's before there was computer racks
Must bite tongue... must resist all old-person jokes... must resist... urge too strong!
Snoman - was the wheel invented back then?
Doggonit! That slipped out - must be my terrett's kicking in. [:D] |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/01/2007 7:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
quote:
Originally posted by SnoMan
...in years past I used to setup/align front axles on 4x4's before there was computer racks
Must bite tongue... must resist all old-person jokes... must resist... urge too strong!
Snoman - was the wheel invented back then?
Doggonit! That slipped out - must be my terrett's kicking in. [:D]
Just barely, used to use a device attached to spindle and your would use it in a few different positions while you swing steering from side to side to check caster and chamber and amount of shift in turns. ( I would love to find a nice used one for old times sake) Toein was even less hi tech with mostly a adjustable measuring stick with a line scribbed on tires. YOu will love this part rick, they used to have a hydraulic jack/vise that you could clamp to axle to bend it into proper camber (25ton as I recall)and the trick was knowing how much you could bend/tweak it without breaking the housing. I seen someone actually break on once (not me but they broke the pig housing) Shop had to eat it and replace it for free. Some years later they came up with the idea on placing tapered shims between splindle on knuckle housing to set camber but the problem with that is that if you put too much correction in it the nuts never seated right and it could lead to spindle stud failure from offset torque load on them because surface they tightened against was not perpendicular to stud when shims where between spindle on knuckle housing. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
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Posts:2375
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| 02/01/2007 7:46 PM |
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Wholly cow! Now that's some serious old-skool stuff.
I'm no spring chicken, but I do at least remember (vaguely) the adjustable measuring sticks, and the large plastic C-Clamps / Calipers for doing the measurements.
In all seriousness, how long ago was that?
Rick
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/02/2007 5:48 AM |
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| Late 60's thru 70's when I did it. It dates well before that time though. The shims came out around 80 as i recall when 4x4 where becoming more popular and aftermarket support for them was ramping up. There was a time when you went to a dealer and asked for a 4x4 and they laughed at you and said what would you even need it for and that it would take 3 to 6 months to get one. The first 4x4 i bought was a 67 chevy with enclosed knuckles, a 283 with a 3 on the tree that I got off original owner who had ordered it and waited about 4 months to get it (they only even built them a few times a year) That truck even had factory quad shocks on rear axle! It was a 1/2 ton too. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 02/02/2007 6:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SnoMan
...The first 4x4 i bought was a 67 chevy...
On of my personal favorites! That year and body style really personified the American, 4-wheel drive vehicle.
Quad shocks... wow - it's interesting to see how things have evolved. |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/02/2007 7:28 AM |
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My all time favorite was a 72 GMC 3/4 ton I bought in late 74 from a guy getting out of service (I was still in myself) It hat a 350 4bbl with factory dual gas tanks, a SM465 with spicer axles and 4.1 gears with 16 inch split rims and optional factory HD suspension front and rear. That thing was a tank and rode really ruff. I had a custom step bumber on rear that was made out of 3/8 inch thick wall 5 inch tall with 3 inch ends C channel bent in around license plate with a 3/4 inch thick plate for hitch balls and it was attached to frame with 6 bolts and a braced 1/2 inch strap between bumper and frame. It was nicely made and indestructable too as I never damaged it and it was not from lack of use or abuse. I drove that truck for 10 years and loved the body style and wish I had parked it and kept it. Paid 2900 when I bought it and sold it for 2500 ten years later with 155K on clock. Several years before I sold it I changed the intake to a streetmaster and installed a Competion Cams H260 in it and installed factory type quiet dual exhausts with a crossover and a dual point distributor which I tweaked the curve in. That truck ran and no 4x4 truck I ran across while I had it could touch it. It was my third 4x4. Before that I bought a 70 3 door 1/2 ton 4x4 burb with a 350 4bbl and a THM 350 in 73 and did the factoy duals, intake and a H252 on it. That truck ran really well too and surprized a lot of people the way it could really light them up big time. Those presmog GM 4x4's ran really strong. I almost installed a 396 in my 72 GMC in 81 because I had one in a 69 impala SS that was good but frame was rusting out in rear. I repairrd frame some and sold car and a few years later sold truck and replaced it with a custom Scout traveler with four bucket seat (I had gotten married in 81 and priorities changed) there has not been a year since about 70 that I did not have a 4x4 of some kind in my driveway (even had two 4x4 Subarus for a total of 9 years from 80 till 89. Got rid of scout in about 86 when i got a Jeep J20 and just had it and 4x4 subaru and then 89 got rid of Subaru and bought 89 4x4 burb new when I found one fully loaded the way I wanted it just before I was going to order one (I had late twins in 88 and had another kid too and subaru was not enough any more) Since then I have had several more 4x4 and curently own 3 and at my peak owned four. Currently one I have had for 21 years (the J20), a the 89 burb and a 2000 k3500 I bought new too. I bought and sold a few other used 4x4 during the last 10 years too. Never really liked the 73 to 87 truck body style and though my 89 burb kinda shares it they impoved the grill and sheet metal on front end in 88 and made it look nicer. That 89 burb has been a very good vehicle to me and has see and run in temps near 50 below (so did J20) I used dual block heater on burb and tank heater on Jeep but ine time I forgot to plug Jeep in and needed it and started it at 38 below without much fuss cold. It kinda surprized me that it started so easily but it sure did crank slow. AMC made some great old V8's that where good about starting in cold weather. BTW at those temp not even SYN oil cuts it and I used a bit of kerosene in automatics and power steering to get them to work right in those temps. (even with 75w90 SYN in axles it felt like you were always pulling a drag chute at temps below minus 25 or so in a 4x4. Around minus 50 the front wheel bearings started to freeze. Sorry about getting on my soapbox and off topic but again the 67 to 72 still was/is my favorite body style. I do not care for Silverados at all and they seem to get uglier and less truck like every year. |
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sublmnl1990
Body Lift
Posts:195
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| 02/06/2007 5:58 PM |
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| When you take it t an alignment shop you do need to find out if they can align a vehicle the old school way, resisting old man jokes. Alot of the places have guys on computers and the only thing they can enter is the year make and model of your truck, if any mods have been done they can not account for them, they will still take your money. You will need to find a shop that pretty much just does alignments not any store chains or tire chains, a good ole alignment shop. |
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You know it's going to be a good day when you get the milk to cereal ratio correct on the first bowl. |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/07/2007 6:59 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sublmnl1990
When you take it t an alignment shop you do need to find out if they can align a vehicle the old school way, resisting old man jokes. Alot of the places have guys on computers and the only thing they can enter is the year make and model of your truck, if any mods have been done they can not account for them, they will still take your money. You will need to find a shop that pretty much just does alignments not any store chains or tire chains, a good ole alignment shop.
Yep because in the "old days" we would see how it drove and tweak it until it drove right. (sometimes load a little extra caster and/or camber in one side to stop it for pulling when all else failed) |
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Dan Pitts
Body Lift
Posts:232
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| 02/07/2007 7:06 PM |
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| yeah but with the new computers it makes it so much easier and you can do everything that you could with teh oold stuff wich i have never seen. what you guys use two 2x4s on the tires and a measurin tape. anyways any alignment shop can take care of your problem and they will look for worn parts before they align it. somthin you can do at home though is jack up the jeep by the axle and shack the tire up and down and side to side. also shack the steering wheel and you can see movement in the steering componets such as the tie rod moving and the knuckle not moving then you would need a tie rod. i would also check your wheel bearings they went bad on my jeep the other day and when i replaced them my death wobble went away. |
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Danny Pitts
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lift it, fat chicks can't jump |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 02/07/2007 8:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan Pitts
yeah but with the new computers it makes it so much easier and you can do everything that you could with teh oold stuff wich i have never seen.
Not really. The problem with the computer racks is that is may show the data defferently but what you do with it is another matter and it does not know what to do for things out of spec or does not feel right where "old timers" like myself can look at the data and the feel and figure out what to do to fix a problem and not de[end on "spec" to fix it. Computers have not replaced the years of experiance and reasoning of a seasoned veteran on alignment racks yet and likely will not for some time to come and the guys running the rack today do not no much else to do than to "follow the program" |
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