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| Author |
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Sedge1080
Bone Stock
Posts:8
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| 04/28/2006 8:24 AM |
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| I have a 97 Wrangler and i plan on putting in a Stage 2 jet chip. I was wondering if anyone had one in there Jeep. Also if it was worth the money? |
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Got Jeep? |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 04/29/2006 9:47 AM |
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Hi Sedge - I'm going to assume that you're running a 4.0L engine with an automatic trans when I make my statements below (in regards to net horsepower gains). But, the overall jist of this response won't change even if you have a 2.4 L engine.
While I am a big fan of Jet (they make great products), I'm NOT a big fan of putting chips in naturally aspirated engines.
There's simply not enough gains from putting chips in naturally aspirated engines since there isn't much a chip can do. Fuel mixture and timing are the two primary changes a chip will make in a naturally aspirated engine, and those are (quite typically) the only things that will net you any power increase. In a turbo charged engine, those changes add up to massive gains, but not in a naturally aspirated engine. The other changes made by the chip are usually knock sensor adjustment and MAF, TPI and MAP readings (among a few others). All of which are done to keep the engine running smoothly with the fuel and timing adjustments.
Also consider that with a Stage 2 chip, you'll need to run premium fuel and at close to $3 per gallon, you're dollar - to - power gain ratio just fell on its face.
In my humble opinion, I would strongly suggest that you look at things like a thorttle body spacer and a cool air dam with cotton gauze air filter. The Wrangler's exhaust is pretty free flowing, so you won't see much of a difference in changing exhaust, but you can pickup 2 or 3 horsepower with a free-flowing exhaust.
Overall, here is how I calculate this...
Jet Stage 2 Chip:
- Chip = $320
- Increase in fuel cost (8%) = $150 (annually, VERY rough estimates)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- - Total Cost = $470
- - Total claimed gains = 25 HP
- - Each Horsepower will cost you $18.80
Cool air dam, cotton gauze filter, TBI spacer:
- Cool air dam w/filter = $215
- TBI spacer = $60
- Increase in fuel costs = 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- - Total Cost = $275
- - Total claimed gains = 33 hp (air dam = 11 hp, TBI spacer = 22 hp)
- - Each horsepower will cost you $8.33
Doing the math, the cool air dam, cotton gauze filter and TBI space is more than 50% cheaper, per horsepower and will net you even further power gains, as well as a potential savings in fuel.
NOTE/DISCLAIMER: These are some very crude math calculations as there are a great deal of things that could swing these numbers and findings by a large percentage. Further, I'm simply using manufacturer claims of HP/Torque increases, so don't hold me to the performance gain numbers!
Anyhow, that's my opinion, for what it's worth. [)] |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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Sedge1080
Bone Stock
Posts:8
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| 04/30/2006 12:03 PM |
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| Yeah, i am running a 4.0L but with a standard tranny. I curently have a Cool Air Dam. Ive been thinking about a TB Spacer but wasn't to sure about it. I Forgot about having to run High test gass. Thats a good point. Do you think a TB Spacer will be worth it?
Thanks for the imput
-Sedge |
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Got Jeep? |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 04/30/2006 1:35 PM |
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I think so... it's an inexpensive way to squeeze out a few more ponies, and something you can do yourself in an hour or less, and it's a good match with the cool air dam.
Plus, they have a real neat whistle sound to them when you step on the gas. [)]
You can see a review we did on this at: http://www.4x4review.com/products/drive_train/airaid.asp. This will give you an idea of what you're up against (even though this is a newer TJ).
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 05/01/2006 5:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Hi Sedge - I'm going to assume that you're running a 4.0L engine with an automatic trans when I make my statements below (in regards to net horsepower gains). But, the overall jist of this response won't change even if you have a 2.4 L engine.
While I am a big fan of Jet (they make great products), I'm NOT a big fan of putting chips in naturally aspirated engines.
There's simply not enough gains from putting chips in naturally aspirated engines since there isn't much a chip can do. Fuel mixture and timing are the two primary changes a chip will make in a naturally aspirated engine, and those are (quite typically) the only things that will net you any power increase. In a turbo charged engine, those changes add up to massive gains, but not in a naturally aspirated engine. The other changes made by the chip are usually knock sensor adjustment and MAF, TPI and MAP readings (among a few others). All of which are done to keep the engine running smoothly with the fuel and timing adjustments.
Also consider that with a Stage 2 chip, you'll need to run premium fuel and at close to $3 per gallon, you're dollar - to - power gain ratio just fell on its face.
In my humble opinion, I would strongly suggest that you look at things like a thorttle body spacer and a cool air dam with cotton gauze air filter. The Wrangler's exhaust is pretty free flowing, so you won't see much of a difference in changing exhaust, but you can pickup 2 or 3 horsepower with a free-flowing exhaust.
Overall, here is how I calculate this...
Jet Stage 2 Chip:
- Chip = $320
- Increase in fuel cost (8%) = $150 (annually, VERY rough estimates)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- - Total Cost = $470
- - Total claimed gains = 25 HP
- - Each Horsepower will cost you $18.80
Cool air dam, cotton gauze filter, TBI spacer:
- Cool air dam w/filter = $215
- TBI spacer = $60
- Increase in fuel costs = 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------
- - Total Cost = $275
- - Total claimed gains = 33 hp (air dam = 11 hp, TBI spacer = 22 hp)
- - Each horsepower will cost you $8.33
Doing the math, the cool air dam, cotton gauze filter and TBI space is more than 50% cheaper, per horsepower and will net you even further power gains, as well as a potential savings in fuel.
NOTE/DISCLAIMER: These are some very crude math calculations as there are a great deal of things that could swing these numbers and findings by a large percentage. Further, I'm simply using manufacturer claims of HP/Torque increases, so don't hold me to the performance gain numbers!
Anyhow, that's my opinion, for what it's worth. [)]
I have to disagree with some of this logic. First the affinity for 87 octane fuel in a modern engine. People hang on to it with a death grip and do not realize how much they are hurt performance on a hot day or a hard pull. Give that currently 89 is only about 2 to 3% more than 87 and 93 about 5 to 7% more, the power gain and MPG gain you will likely see will more than ofset extra fual cost. I do not run 87 octane in any of my modern vehicle 4cyl or V8 and have not for years. It is 89 in winter and cooler months and 93 on hotter days except my 89 burb which I have run only on 93 for almost 15 years now. When it was new for first few years and I ran 87, it was a slug on hot days on trip and would downshift a lot on hills and would want to knock at times even with stock timing. Best MPG I evet got was 15 and usually around 14 on long summer trips out west with A/C on all the time. I switch to 93 and advance the timing 8 degrees over stock and it is a different animal with great responce and even today when we droove it to North Carolina a few weeks ago, it averaged over 17 MPG for about 1000 miles including some low speed site seeing and twon driving (40 gallon tank) and never left OD or converter lock once on the trip down or back on hillway hills and pulled well. Even my wifes stock 2000 Cherokee with a 2.5 and a stick gets about 2 MPG better in town in summer wwith 93 and that more than offsets extra fual cost. Given toadys fuel prices, why pay a little less and loose performance too? Any one seriuos about a custom tune needs to dump using 87 or they will not be happy with overall return.
(fixed a few typo's) |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 05/01/2006 9:01 PM |
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I certianly don't disagree with your claims SnoMan, but the point I was driving at was that with the chip upgrade, you're all but forced to use high octane fuel in order for the rig to run adequately and to reap the benefits of it.
In regards to your point about newer cars, some of which now (and many of which soon), will not have the ability to adjust the timing, since many new engines have (or will have) distributorless motors. So you won't have the opportunity to advance the timing. Also, with an 8 degree advance in timing, especially on a hot day, some vehicles may have problems with hard starting.
But getting back to the point at hand... if Sedge chooses a chip over the alternatives, he will be forced to use high octane, otherwise he'll negate many of the benefits. If he chooses the other route (which is more cost effective (dollar per horsepower)), he'll at least have the option.
Either way, I too run high-octane fuel in many of my vehicles, but I primarily run it in my off-road vehicle to help keep the engine running cooler (I get a 5-10 degree drop in temperature by runnning high test).
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 05/02/2006 5:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
I certianly don't disagree with your claims SnoMan, but the point I was driving at was that with the chip upgrade, you're all but forced to use high octane fuel in order for the rig to run adequately and to reap the benefits of it.
While there is some merit to what you say, a chip upgrade just exposes the obvious that 87 is not enough for engine to begin with because if it was, a chip would not cause problems.
quote:
In regards to your point about newer cars, some of which now (and many of which soon), will not have the ability to adjust the timing, since many new engines have (or will have) distributorless motors. So you won't have the opportunity to advance the timing. Also, with an 8 degree advance in timing, especially on a hot day, some vehicles may have problems with hard starting.
Never had that problem with the correct gas and over 30 years ago I ran for cars with 11 to 1 compression and 10 to 14 BTDC static timing. Back then you could tell who the tight wads were because you could hear their cars knocking and rattling away from lights and stops on low octane fuel because there was no knock sesors to plant the false myth. 87 was conceived in the mid 70's for low compression engines. Engines evolved and moved past it but some still cling to it. If they sold 85 octane for 5 cents less their would be those that would not hesitate to use it and brag about saving 5 cents.
quote:
But getting back to the point at hand... if Sedge chooses a chip over the alternatives, he will be forced to use high octane, otherwise he'll negate many of the benefits. If he chooses the other route (which is more cost effective (dollar per horsepower)), he'll at least have the option.
Not much of a option. If more would use better gas and live with it for a while they may find that performance improves enough that they do not need to look for magic airfilter and chips to restore power that 87 has taken from them.
quote:
Either way, I too run high-octane fuel in many of my vehicles, but I primarily run it in my off-road vehicle to help keep the engine running cooler (I get a 5-10 degree drop in temperature by runnning high test).
This is a sign that you are running on dentination edge (ECM may be retarding spark to control it) and detination and retarding spark reduces engine efficency and it burns more fuel to make needed power which equals more heat. This being so I am not really surprized by your observation but I still commend you for noting it as it shows that you keep a watchfull eye on your vitals which is good insurance. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 05/02/2006 7:37 PM |
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quote:
But getting back to the point at hand... if Sedge chooses a chip over the alternatives, he will be forced to use high octane, otherwise he'll negate many of the benefits. If he chooses the other route (which is more cost effective (dollar per horsepower)), he'll at least have the option.
quote:
Not much of a option. If more would use better gas and live with it for a while they may find that performance improves enough that they do not need to look for magic airfilter and chips to restore power that 87 has taken from them.
You know, as we started getting deeper into this thread, that's something I started wondering about. I wonder... if all things were equal (e.g. a controlled environment), would the cost of hi-test fuel pay for itself? That is, would running hi-test fuel in a car cause enough of an increase in fuel efficiency to pay for the $0.10 - $0.15 increase?
Would make for a VERY interesting test!
quote:
Either way, I too run high-octane fuel in many of my vehicles, but I primarily run it in my off-road vehicle to help keep the engine running cooler (I get a 5-10 degree drop in temperature by runnning high test).
quote:
...but I still commend you for noting it as it shows that you keep a watchfull eye on your vitals which is good insurance.
Thanks... it was kind of out of neccessity since the motor was running hot on the trails in Arizona (poor engine propwash, etc.), but that has all been cured. Regardless, I still only run the 'good stuff' in my rig.
RW
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 05/03/2006 5:22 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
But getting back to the point at hand... if Sedge chooses a chip over the alternatives, he will be forced to use high octane, otherwise he'll negate many of the benefits. If he chooses the other route (which is more cost effective (dollar per horsepower)), he'll at least have the option.
While better fuel is really a nsut have for a chip, user should try better fuel to begin with
quote:
You know, as we started getting deeper into this thread, that's something I started wondering about. I wonder... if all things were equal (e.g. a controlled environment), would the cost of hi-test fuel pay for itself? That is, would running hi-test fuel in a car cause enough of an increase in fuel efficiency to pay for the $0.10 - $0.15 increase?
I have seen it first hand myself and I can feel a difference in how it runs too. I had a 2006 2500HD loaner with a 6.0 a few weeks ago and when I got it it was nearly out of gas but I hooked up my scanner to it and recorded engine data and timing curve and obsevere performance too. Then I put some 93 in and and drove it somemore. It ran much better and it average 3 to 5 degrees more timing cruising and WOT (it was 14 to 16 BTDC WOT with 87 at 4000 RPM and about 20 to 21 at same with 93 and engine pulled much better WOT too. Given that the price of better gas is so high that better gas costs so little more % wise, the gains you are likely to get using it will offset cost of it and then some and get "free" extra power and responce.
quote:
Thanks... it was kind of out of neccessity since the motor was running hot on the trails in Arizona (poor engine propwash, etc.), but that has all been cured. Regardless, I still only run the 'good stuff' in my rig.
It has been my experiance that for serious offroad work especailly in hot weather that you need to loose the clutch fan and get a properly size flex fan to maintain positive airflow at all times and lower engine and underhood temps which tends to improve performace offroad too and in the case of a carb, greatly reduces the chance of vapor lock too. Yes you might gain a little extra noise and maybe loose a fraction of MPG at time but you will have a lot more capable offraod vehicle that always keeps its cool. |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 05/03/2006 6:16 AM |
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quote:
Thanks... it was kind of out of neccessity since the motor was running hot on the trails in Arizona (poor engine propwash, etc.), but that has all been cured. Regardless, I still only run the 'good stuff' in my rig.
quote:
It has been my experiance that for serious offroad work especailly in hot weather that you need to loose the clutch fan and get a properly size flex fan to maintain positive airflow at all times and lower engine and underhood temps which tends to improve performace offroad too and in the case of a carb, greatly reduces the chance of vapor lock too. Yes you might gain a little extra noise and maybe loose a fraction of MPG at time but you will have a lot more capable offraod vehicle that always keeps its cool.
I've seen similar improvements too going that way. I chose to go with a Flex-A-Lite electric fan (http://www.4x4review.com/products/electrical/FAL-BMXtreme.asp), which allows me to turn the fan off if I end up in water deep enough to get to the fan blades - obviously I avoid that at all costs as it's damaging to the axles, etc, but it's nice to have anyhow. Plus it freed up a few extra ponies by not having the drag.
This and a few other changes (better radiator, high-volume water pump, and moving the engine forward 2 inches) made all of the difference in the world. I can now actually overcool the engine on very warm days, and can keep it running right at 200 degrees on hot days. Phew! |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 05/03/2006 7:05 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
This and a few other changes (better radiator, high-volume water pump, and moving the engine forward 2 inches) made all of the difference in the world. I can now actually overcool the engine on very warm days, and can keep it running right at 200 degrees on hot days. Phew!
If your cooling system is indeed properly sized and designed, it should not realy very more than 10 degrees or so from colds day to hot. GM gtot it right on my 2000 K3500 SRW because that truck does not get hot no matter what you do winter or summer. Last suumer I towed a 7500 pound traile a extended distance on hiway when it was 95 plus out. It never even hit 210, even when stopped in traffic with A/C chilling too. It has a 10 bladed clutch fan that works the best of any one I have every had. It pretty much stays between about 190 and 200 all the time like it is glued there. On electric fans, I have a mixed opinion in that they are kida nice at time but no sub for a good engine driven fan and add electrical load to engines alt too and if you plan for worst case in the wild and have to limp in with a bad alt, you cannot cool engine with a electric fan without shortening your possible runtime. I have included a info link on how to recalibrate clutch fan s if you want to see how to tweak them.
[url]http://forum.snoman.com/viewtopic.php?t=79[/url] |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 05/03/2006 2:55 PM |
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| That's really interesting... I knew that you could alter the clutch on the fan, but didn't know how. Thanks for the tip Snoman! |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 05/03/2006 7:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
That's really interesting... I knew that you could alter the clutch on the fan, but didn't know how. Thanks for the tip Snoman!
No problem, I have been tweaking them for many many years. I have other "tricks" too. If you try it, follow the instuctions carefully because it is a sensitive adjustment. One more tip, make sure it is at room temp when you do it because if it is warm when you start and cools as you tweak it, it will through your adjustments off. |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 05/03/2006 7:19 PM |
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That's a great tip!
Would you mind if we reprint your tips on the site? We'd give you full credit and links back to your site. |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 05/04/2006 3:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
That's a great tip!
Would you mind if we reprint your tips on the site? We'd give you full credit and links back to your site.
Not a problem as long as the full credits are there with linkage. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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flyer1
Bone Stock
Posts:4
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| 06/22/2007 6:31 PM |
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| I have an Ace 2 chip on my 06 Rubicon and I honestly cannot see any gain in hp. I also have banks headers and a cat-back exaust with Airaid intake. The only thing I hav not installed is a spacer on my 4.0 auto. I live in the mountains at 7500 feet and am trying to get every hp gain I can. I am going to install a supercharger next. I do not get to drive my Jeep verry often so the gas does not bother me. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 06/22/2007 8:22 PM |
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The throttle body spacer on your Rubicon will give you a bit of a boost (not a bad HP-to-$$ ratio), and depending upon the type, you may get a neat turbo-whistle to it too (which you might like, or dislike). Be sure you ask if your intake is a whistling type before you order it.
Rick |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
|
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 06/23/2007 4:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flyer1
I have an Ace 2 chip on my 06 Rubicon and I honestly cannot see any gain in hp. I also have banks headers and a cat-back exaust with Airaid intake. The only thing I hav not installed is a spacer on my 4.0 auto. I live in the mountains at 7500 feet and am trying to get every hp gain I can. I am going to install a supercharger next. I do not get to drive my Jeep verry often so the gas does not bother me.
Actually the headers hurt you more than help you along with cat back exhaust. Any possible gains to see with them is going to be at your highest RPM's not at part throttle and mid RPM where most driving is done. What is hurting you big time is altitude. Back in the "old days" you used to run deeper axle gears and advanced timing to help at altitude. The computer in the Jeep does adjust mixture but because of design and emission requirements, it does not really advance spark much to help any. Your options here? First I would suggest that you get a custom tuned that is PC based that will let you custom tailor your spark advance curve and mixture and limit EGR using a laptop. This will help a lot especially if you use high octane fuel too. It will not give you sea level performance but it will help a lot part and full throttle. There is a product/device out there called a CarChip EX that you can plug into OBD2 port and record what your engine is doing with timing and fuel management as you drive to give you a idea of what is going on and what changes you need to make. Next choice is gears. I know your 4.10's that you should have sounds like a lot of gear but at 7500 feet it is not and if tires are stock consider a 4.56 or if they are bigger than stock consider a 4.88 or 5.13 because this can help a lot at altitude and not effect reliability or add strain (before exhaust emission 4x4's destined for high altitude actually shipped with deeper axle ratios) Last there is supercharger which can help a lot but a few cautions here if you want reliability too. First, you need to always run high octane fuel period. Next, you need to increase the size of radiator because at higher altitudes the air density is less so radiator efficiency is reduced and while this is not generally a problem with a stock non supercharge motor (because it looses efficiency and power output too) with a supercharged motor is is different and when you supercharge you do not want to get hot ever. This could lead to heating problems off road at lower speeds. You also want to install a aux engine oil cooler if you supercharge. Granted some supercharge without doing this (radiator and oil cooler) but they are playing with fire in terms of engine longevity. As to what I would do in you case? First I would regear Jeep and if not happy, then consider a custom tune like mentioned above Do stop using 87 (or 85.5 if that is regular there) now regardless. Supercharging would be my last choice here for a off road vehicle to try to fix what you are experiencing. One more thing if you supercharge, get a centrifugal one that you can change the size of drive pulley on it to speed it up because in thinner air, its efficiency and boost is reduced and speeding it up will restore it. A supercharger rated at 6 or 7 PSI at sea level might do 3 or 4 PSI at 7500 feet which would just give you sea level non supercharge performance at most. (big or hi performance aircraft during and after WW2 with piston engines had variable speed superchargers for this reason) Also, centrifugal superchargers heat the air less compressing it yielding a cooler denser mixture and provide more high RPM boost too (their efficiency increases with RPM) Sorry if I got on soap box for a bit but I lived at about 7000 feet for a while and spent a lot of time above 10,000 feet and I know first hand what you are dealing with. Back then the vehicles I had could have their timing altered easily which I did and it helped a lot. I ran deep gearing too relative to tire size. |
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Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 06/23/2007 4:17 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
The throttle body spacer on your Rubicon will give you a bit of a boost (not a bad HP-to-$$ ratio), and depending upon the type, you may get a neat turbo-whistle to it too (which you might like, or dislike). Be sure you ask if your intake is a whistling type before you order it.
Rick
Unless you have throttle body injection (which his jeep does not have) those spacers are basically a waste of money. |
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--------------------------
Visit the SnoMan at
www.thesnoman.com |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 06/23/2007 10:43 AM |
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| DOH! I was thinking YJ... my bad |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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flyer1
Bone Stock
Posts:4
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| 07/02/2007 5:54 PM |
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Why the move of the engine foward 2'? quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
quote:
Thanks... it was kind of out of neccessity since the motor was running hot on the trails in Arizona (poor engine propwash, etc.), but that has all been cured. Regardless, I still only run the 'good stuff' in my rig.
quote:
It has been my experiance that for serious offroad work especailly in hot weather that you need to loose the clutch fan and get a properly size flex fan to maintain positive airflow at all times and lower engine and underhood temps which tends to improve performace offroad too and in the case of a carb, greatly reduces the chance of vapor lock too. Yes you might gain a little extra noise and maybe loose a fraction of MPG at time but you will have a lot more capable offraod vehicle that always keeps its cool.
I've seen similar improvements too going that way. I chose to go with a Flex-A-Lite electric fan (http://www.4x4review.com/products/electrical/FAL-BMXtreme.asp), which allows me to turn the fan off if I end up in water deep enough to get to the fan blades - obviously I avoid that at all costs as it's damaging to the axles, etc, but it's nice to have anyhow. Plus it freed up a few extra ponies by not having the drag.
This and a few other changes (better radiator, high-volume water pump, and moving the engine forward 2 inches) made all of the difference in the world. I can now actually overcool the engine on very warm days, and can keep it running right at 200 degrees on hot days. Phew!
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 07/04/2007 4:32 PM |
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| When you put a small block in a Jeep or FJ, you need to push it forward a few inches so you can get adequate propwash between the motor and the firewall. Also, in some setups, without moving it forward, your distributor will be mashed against the firewall. |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
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'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 07/04/2007 6:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
When you put a small block in a Jeep or FJ, you need to push it forward a few inches so you can get adequate propwash between the motor and the firewall. Also, in some setups, without moving it forward, your distributor will be mashed against the firewall.
If you gain cooling it was because you did not have a proper shroud around fan and moving engine closer to radiator makes it more effective and in your case a bigger core too. I have seen some real shoe horn fits with a lot of engines into firewalls and cooling was not a issue with proper radiator and fan. Position of engine itself has no bearing on cooling to speak of. |
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webby4x4
Forum Admin, Magazine Editor
Rock Star
Posts:2375
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| 07/04/2007 7:04 PM |
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Nope, not true. Prop wash is an inportant aspect of drivetrain cooling. Although not critical, it is important.
I don't have a mechanical fan, I have an electric fan that has it's own shroud, and bolts directly to the radiator. After I moved the engine forward, I picked up approx 5 degrees in cooling, plus there was more airflow over the trans and t-case, which made my floorboards cooler.
RW |
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Rick Webster
Editor, 4X4REVIEW.COM - A Tork Media, Inc. Publication
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
'74 FJ40 Land Cruiser
"Measure once, cut twice" |
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SnoMan
Lift & Lockers
Posts:943
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| 07/05/2007 3:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by webby4x4
Nope, not true. Prop wash is an inportant aspect of drivetrain cooling. Although not critical, it is important.
I don't have a mechanical fan, I have an electric fan that has it's own shroud, and bolts directly to the radiator. After I moved the engine forward, I picked up approx 5 degrees in cooling, plus there was more airflow over the trans and t-case, which made my floorboards cooler.
RW
I agree that it could make floor board a bit cooler but any effect on engine cooling itself will be very small. |
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